Wednesday, April 19, 2017

Ionians and Ironman

Siegfried Bleher Apr 19, 2017
Dear Jo,
Just a few questions and/or comments about your post.  
1) Normally I would consider the scale that separates quantum from classical to be the scale of the quantum of action, Planck’s constant, i.e. size of phase space volume, not coordinate space or configuration space size.  And, of course, the size of the volume does not put any restrictions on its shape.  
2) Uncertainty in quantum theory is not present in the completely deterministic time evolution of the Schroedinger equation, only when we force the Schroedinger equation to make a prediction as to which of the many classically describable observations will appear upon observation.  Hence the multiple interpretations—there is still a resistant disconnect between the two modes of description. 
3) Uncertainty born of discreteness in a space that is assumed continuous—does that uncertainty remain if we avoid the assumption of continuity?  B. J. Hiley and D. Bohm (and others) attempted to argue—with some success--that all of modern physics is derivable without assuming our world of finitely precise observations is embedded within Euclidean (R3) space or its curved cousins.  If that is true, then is uncertainty still necessary? 
4) Macroscopic objects that have ‘quantized’ modes, such as violin strings, are describable with (continuum) equations, but such equations are only valid to some maximum value of frequency determined ultimately by the finite quantum of action.  However the quantum of action does not determine the ‘quantized’ modes, which are classical things.  In this sense, it does seem that scale is relevant, but again it is not necessarily physical size, but rather size of action.  
5) Admittedly the physical quantity called ‘action’ that is at the heart of all classical physics, as well as quantum mechanics, in an even more fundamental sense than Newton’s concept of ‘force’ (c.f. variational principle; principle of least action) is not ‘observable’ or ‘envisageable’ as you say.  
To me the action is a dynamical ‘thing’ that stands outside of time, as it is only computable over an interval of time, whereas we only observe at a given moment in time.  Or, at least, our minds tag events as occurring at discrete moments in time.  So when we perform an observation, we project an entire or ‘whole’ action onto a thin slice in time, and we say there is uncertainty—the uncertainty arises in part because we leave out so much information carried by the wave function in an effort to measure something we can relate to.  
When we entertain the possibility of observing ‘actions’, wholes, outside the passage of time, then perhaps we will not see so much uncertainty?

Diego Lucio Rapoport Apr 19, 2017
Indeed, you have an understanding in terms of history and i have one which does and does not follow this history. With regards to inference i already told you -and apparently you skipped it though you told me that understood me- that you may have a system of several non-reflective negation operators and yet which are connected between themselves. For such a system, the double negation does not give you the identity but something else, generalising and extending the dialectical negation. 
Still you may have a Matrix Logic, as conceived by August Stern, closely related to the Klein Bottle logic, in which the logical operators are matrices; particularly important is the Hadamard two by two matrix (the Hadamard gate of quantum mechanics), which is none other than the representation of the Klein Bottle. It allows to express inference as quantum transitions and interchangeably at that. You may produce higher-order logics by taking the tensor products. it has quantum, fuzzy and Boolean logic as subcases.
Seems that the history of logic as you present it is missing some chapters.
I am sorry, but i am not an historian of logic but committed to extend it.

priyedarshi jetli Apr 19, 2017

This is rather ad hominem. You may not agree with Aristotle. However, Aristotle was a physicist and a biologist. Plato wasn't. Aristotle also invented formal logic which Plato was not able to do. Aristotle also attempted to formalize ontology and ethics. Only thing Aristotle wasn't was perhaps a mathematician, though he knew a lot of mathematics. 
Furthermore, as we understand the term 'materialism' today, Aristotle was not a materialist as he accepted the existence of a non material soul. That he gave a materialist explanation of the material world is what made him a scientist like scientists today. However, by positing a final cause and being critical of the Presocratics for not having discussed the formal cause, Aristotle (the Greek) definitely parted from the materialism of the Presocratics (Asians) who were only concerned with the material cause. 
So, if you are looking for the roots of materialism and want to condemn it and praise Plato for not being a materialist, then you have to go much further back to the Ionians to pin down materialism. For me, Plato, is important for a lot, of which his non-matierialism, if that can be attributed to him, is rather insignificant. The main contributions of Plato are to methodology which makes him the founder of philosophy to some extent.

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