pragmatic ignorance
maprovonshanoesisPosts: 1387
Posted:Feb 22, 2005 - 08:40 PM
The quintessential American proverb is "ignorance is bliss." Though to philosophy, it seems heretical; for many people, it's practical. The more we learn, the more we know there's more to learn. The more we seek and obtain
knowledge, the more unsure we are about the knowledge we've hitherto gathered. Today in school as my mind wandered from my bullshit classes, I wondered if there's any point to our hopeless
search for wisdom. Again, I know this sounds bad in terms of philosophy. Philosophy is the search for wisdom, but is the search for wisdom a lost cause? Aren't careless people happier than we are? Shouldn't happiness be the benchmark from which we value actions? If that's true, shouldn't we be careless like most happy people are (ignorant people that, when something bad happens, they say 'everything happens for a reason, and when something good happens say 'I've been blessed')?I know this isn't good philosophy, but since rational philosophy is all about the theoretical, isn't it better that societies are based on ignorance and bullshit? Would the world be a better place if we were all miserable and smart, or blissfully ignorant?NOTE: This is just theoretical; I know it seems anti-philosophical, but it's just a thought._________________"so pray that there's intelligent
life somewhere up in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on earth." --Eric Idle
jaspernoesisPosts: 1271
Posted:Feb 22, 2005 - 08:52 PM
Ha ha ha. I have often thought the same thing. The only point to
life is what you make of it, unless you are religious. So, if philosophy is overall fulfilling for you, then you should continue pursueing it. If not you maybe shouldn't. Do some soul searching perhaps. It sounds cheesy, but it's better than therapy.There is no higher purpose to it though. Many of the theories in philosophy are distortortions of reality created by the human mind. There is no meaning to things except what we humans attach to it. So, ask yourself if you should attach meaning to philosophy as a fulfilling hobby and or practice it so that you can attain higher understanding and be a wiser and hopefully more intelligent person, which will help you in many areas of life.Ignorance may be enjoyable for some, but most do not like the side effects of ignorance, such as atrophied intelligence or memory or just plain poor understanding of the world. We no longer live in a society that is condusive to ignorance. We live in the information age. And many technological tools we use require some degree of intelligence and
knowledge. Politics is continually getting scarier around the world. That is why we need to keep up on important situations happening around the world so we know who to elect to different offices...It really depends on what you mean by being ignorant, doesn't it? I mean if you are talking just being like the average person then you could definitely live like that without many side effects. If you mean ignorance like Billy Bob who has lived in the remote mountains since he was 16 that's a different story.There is no right answer perhaps. The preference and which lifestyle will be best for which person varies greatly from person to person. It is relativistic.
DiotimamoderatorPosts: 1737
Posted:Feb 22, 2005 - 08:56 PM
MaprovI'll ignore the latter part of your post as I realise you are only a high school student.But you should read J S Mill.Try "Utillitarianism" first.Then, before you writeit off. explain to me why he is wrong to say:happiness is importantPS: just saying this is utilitarian is not an objection. PPS: I'm a consquentialist_________________I'll teach you differences.
jaspernoesisPosts: 1271
Posted:Feb 22, 2005 - 09:10 PM
There is nothing wrong with happiness as long as it does not produce ill effects that outweigh it significantly. However, there are different gradients of happiness. There is intellectual happiness, spiritual or moral fulfillment, social happiness, and competitive happines, relationship happiness, etc., these all being higher forms of happines. Next we have the lower forms that everyone associates with utilitarianism too much: sex, addiction, good food, petty status recognition, enjoying mindless activities or easy mental stimulation (TV), power, enjoying being lazy, leisure, etc.Now, if you associate the higher and lower forms of happiness with utilitarian happiness, then really what you are saying is redundant, because of course humans should do what makes them have a good
life without doing so at the expense of others.
heroic_dictatorPosts: 76
Posted:Feb 22, 2005 - 09:55 PM
Quote:
The quintessential American proverb is "ignorance is bliss." Though to philosophy, it seems heretical; for many people, it's practical. The more we learn, the more we know there's more to learn. The more we seek and obtain
knowledge, the more unsure we are about the knowledge we've hitherto gathered. Today in school as my mind wandered from my bullshit classes, I wondered if there's any point to our hopeless
search for wisdom. Again, I know this sounds bad in terms of philosophy. Philosophy is the search for wisdom, but is the search for wisdom a lost cause? Aren't careless people happier than we are? Shouldn't happiness be the benchmark from which we value actions? If that's true, shouldn't we be careless like most happy people are (ignorant people that, when something bad happens, they say 'everything happens for a reason, and when something good happens say 'I've been blessed')?I know this isn't good philosophy, but since rational philosophy is all about the theoretical, isn't it better that societies are based on ignorance and bullshit? Would the world be a better place if we were all miserable and smart, or blissfully ignorant?NOTE: This is just theoretical; I know it seems anti-philosophical, but it's just a thought.
I made a topic similar to this, I believe lower intelligence levels give peace easier and the most knowledgeable person is the one that suffers the most with a few exceptions.
nousskiaPosts: 166
Posted:Feb 22, 2005 - 11:57 PM
We have all heard Socrates' famous quote: "The unexamined
life is not worth living." It recently struck me that this does not entail that "The examined life is worth living." In fact, the
truth of the matter is "The examined life is also not worth living." Ignorance is bliss. After all, what's the point of thinking about things you cannot change?
MelchiorskiaPosts: 192
Posted:Feb 23, 2005 - 08:38 AM
I don't really see eye to eye with you hereDo you enjoy "searching for wisdom?" Have you had a passion for it since you were my age? What makes you think you'd be happier on a less enlightening path?You can't be pickey with your lifelong pursuits. You need to pick and choose one and streamline with it. Ultimately your going to live a wasted
life. If your bored in pursuit of your passion, your gonna be bored no matter what you do. But at least be bored, in something that you know you can do well. Even if you believe it's meaning is fruitles, there's no turning back.How do you think all those women softball players deal?_________________"Rosseau was mad bu influential, Hume was sane but had no followers"
maprovonshanoesisPosts: 1387
Posted:Feb 23, 2005 - 04:25 PM
Quote:
Have you had a passion for it since you were my age?
What's your age? I'm only 17._________________"so pray that there's intelligent
life somewhere up in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on earth." --Eric Idle
MelchiorskiaPosts: 192
Posted:Feb 23, 2005 - 08:54 PM
In that case 16. Pardon my ignorance._________________"Rosseau was mad bu influential, Hume was sane but had no followers"
nousskiaPosts: 166
Posted:Feb 23, 2005 - 11:22 PM
Maprovonsha, MelchiorAge has nothing to do with it. Citing age is an ad hominem
argument. If at 16 and 17, you already know you like philosophy, you're doing a lot better than I. At that age, I had no idea what philosophy was. It took me a very long time to realise that my destiny in this
life is to be a philosopher --but better late than never, as they say.Melchior, I agree with you that we can't be picky about our lifelong pursuits. We must do what we must do. The problem is: we somehow (perhaps following
Plato or
Aristotle) think that wisdom will lead to happiness. There is no such necessary connection. It is entirely possible that wisdom could lead to misery (when we realise what a horrid state the world is in), and that ignorance could lead to happiness (when we look at the world through rose coloured spectacles).As a philosopher, I enjoy the pursuit of wisdom. As a philosopher, I refuse to look at the world through rose coloured spectacles. As a human being, I don't like to be miserable all the time. Hence, I also choose to be (mostly) ignorant of world affairs. It's pragmatic ignorance.
maprovonshanoesisPosts: 1387
Posted:Feb 24, 2005 - 08:50 PM
Quote:
In that case 16. Pardon my ignorance.
Melchoir, no offense intended.Nous, this is, if I understand you right, quite troubling...
Quote:
As a philosopher, I enjoy the pursuit of wisdom. As a philosopher, I refuse to look at the world through rose coloured spectacles. As a human being, I don't like to be miserable all the time. Hence, I also choose to be (mostly) ignorant of world affairs. It's pragmatic ignorance.
If by world affairs you mean politics, I think that's a huge mistake. Politics should be a primary area of concern for all intellectuals. In Germany in the 1930s it wasn't fashionable to be into politics either, they'd say, "leave politics to the politicians." We should learn from their mistake. As far as happiness goes, maybe I just have a disproportionate amount of reason to be unhappy, or maybe it's just a stage in
life, but I can't reason rationally on being happy (long term) because I can almost never manage to be myself. The sad fact of the matter is that it seems with clearer consciousness comes depression. P.S. If anyone else stuggles with depression as I do, perhaps you would like to know what I do find solace in. Movies, music and drugs. If you especially need something to pick yourself up watch an old comedy movie that you always laugh at. The Big Lebowski!!!_________________"so pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on earth." --Eric Idle
jonlishmandianoiaPosts: 458
Posted:Feb 24, 2005 - 09:17 PM
Unfortunately, it seems in your case, maprovonsha, the genie is out of the bottle. So embrace the genie and train the tricky sprite up so it starts to do some good for you, instead of being a nuisance that seems to go out of its way to make you feel ill at ease. The one thing in the world that an analytical mind with integrity can't abide is contradiction. It creates unbearable tension - similar to the powerful sense of injustice you felt as a child when someone told a lie against you.'Ignorant' people are just people - but you aren't one of them.Bon chance_________________As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human
existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
mrinal_ktPosts: 17
Posted:Feb 25, 2005 - 02:47 AM
Quote:
The quintessential American proverb is "ignorance is bliss." The more we learn, the more we know there's more to learn. The more we seek and obtain
knowledge, the more unsure we are about the knowledge we've hitherto gathered. Today in school as my mind wandered from my bullshit classes, I wondered if there's any point to our hopeless
search for wisdom. Again, I know this sounds bad in terms of philosophy. Philosophy is the search for wisdom, but is the search for wisdom a lost cause? Aren't careless people happier than we are? Shouldn't happiness be the benchmark from which we value actions? I know this isn't good philosophy, but since rational philosophy is all about the theoretical, isn't it better that societies are based on ignorance and bullshit? Would the world be a better place if we were all miserable and smart, or blissfully ignorant?
I guess these thoughts must have crossed the minds of most of us. I am not very sure what exactly you mean by "the search for wisdom". Philosophy, or for that matter any search for
truth is frustrating the moment we realize that the search is an unending quest. That is, we are always on uncertain footing, and unsure. And the more we know, the more there seems to be to know. If our search is for certainties, some kind of final truths then we must restrict ourselves to tautologies. Anything else will be uncertain. This realization is the first meaningful realization that any philosopher or scientist or a human being should have before he/she sets on the path of any enquiry.Thus, if we are looking for certainties, we are on a wild goose chase. But if we realize that ours is going to be an unending quest, the frustration of pursuing a "lost cause" will not set in.The pleasure of philosophy is not in discovering, but in the process of discovery. Other uses may exist, and they are perhaps very important too. But I think that the pleasure of philosophizing or doing science comes from pursuing a path even though one knows that it has no destination. We have our own wits to tell us where, on this path, we may pause to pursue again or even stop. But every stop is merely a convenient resting place. Despite there being directions in which to pursue, there is simply no destination to aim for. So if one loves travelling along this road, then one loves it despite knowing that the journey will not end at a destination. The best one can hope for is to build a comfortable resting place (a theory, a model, etc.) at the end of one's journey. For those who find such pursuit hopeless, they are perhaps looking for more than just travelling. Before starting they should be clear as to what they expect. For those who find it useless, it is possible to enumerate some uses and advantages of the journey. Regarding "ignorance is bliss" mantra, I think there are some people who cannot manage to remain ignorant even if they think that it leads to bliss. The curiosity embedded into their minds perhaps leads them to attempt discovering and unravelling mysteries. These are the people who will philosophize even if they suffer. For the others, they can judge whether they are prepared to walking down unending roads, many of which are without any signposts. Let us, however, remember that a mind once exposed to philosophy cannot get back to starting point provided it feels the philosophy. To make this statement clear, I will give an example. If you philosophize on time and space, you can do from the point of view of a person sitting with a paper and pencil and trying to arrive at a consistent model in order to solve a puzzle in a manner similar to that of solving puzzles from the leisure section of a Sunday newspaper. This is philosophy but without having felt it. But when one attempts the same solution because of the bewilderment that this world, this universe poses then one feels the philosophy. I have given this example to make the following statement:Those who are amazed by this world, and then "feel" philosophy have no hope of returning to bliss that comes from ignorance even if philosophizing is painful to them. edited by: mrinal_kt, Feb 25, 2005 - 02:50 AM _________________MrinalTry these:1.
The Concept of Time2.
Thoughts UnclassifiedSummerianPosts: 48
Posted:Feb 25, 2005 - 08:18 AM
pragmatic ignoranceDoes get the mind working, doesn't it.Think this might be relevant.
http://en.wikip...e_dissonanceCognitive dissonance is a state of imbalance between cognitions. For the purpose of this theory, cognitions are defined as being an attitude,
emotion, belief or value, or even a mixture of these cognitions. In brief, the theory of cognitive dissonance holds that the human mind tends to adopt thoughts or beliefs so as to minimise the amount of dissonance (conflict) between cognitions.The experimentIn Festinger and Carlsmith's classic 1957 experiment, students were made to perform tedious and meaningless tasks, consisting of turning pegs quarter-turns, then removing them from a board, then putting them back in, and so forth. Subjects rated these tasks very negatively. After a long period of doing this, students were told the experiment was over and they could leave.However, the experimenter then asked the subject for a small favor. They were told that a needed research assistant was not able to make it to the experiment, and the subject was asked if they could fill in and try to persuade another subject (who was actually a confederate) that the dull, boring tasks they had just completed were actually interesting and engaging. Some subjects were paid $20 for the favor, another group was paid $1, and a control group was not requested to perform the favor.When asked to rate the peg-turning tasks, those in the $1 group showed a much greater degree of attitude change in favor of the experiment than those in either of the other two groups. Experimenters theorized that when paid only $1, students were forced to internalize the attitude they were induced to express, because they had no other justification. Those in the $20 condition, it is argued, had an obvious external justification for their behavior -- they did it for the money. But with only $1, subjects faced insufficient justification and therefore "cognitive dissonance" which they sought to relieve by changing their attitude in order to really believe that they found the tasks enjoyable.Two kinds of dissonanceTheorists have identified two different kinds of cognitive dissonance that are relevant to decision making: pre-decisional dissonance and post-decisional dissonance.Pre-decisional dissonance might be analogous to what Freud called "compensation." When a test showed that subjects had latent sexist attitudes, they later awarded a female a larger reward than a male in what they were told was a different study. Researchers hypothesized that the larger reward reduced dissonance by attempting to show that they were not sexist in the later decision.The more well-known form of dissonance, however, is post-decisional dissonance. Many studies have shown that people will subjectively reinforce decisions or commitments they have already made. In one simple experiment, experimenters found that bettors at a horse track believed bets were more likely to succeed immediately after being placed. According to the theory, the possibility of being wrong is dissonance-arousing, so people will change their perceptions to make their decisions seem better. This is the basis of the foot-in-the-door technique in sales, and possibly confirmation bias.Post-decisional dissonance may be increased by the importance of the issue, the length of time the subject takes to make or avoid the decision, and the extent to which the decision could be reversed.
nousskiaPosts: 166
Posted:Mar 02, 2005 - 02:28 AM
Quote:
Let us, however, remember that a mind once exposed to philosophy cannot get back to starting point provided it feels the philosophy. To make this statement clear, I will give an example. If you philosophize on time and space, you can do from the point of view of a person sitting with a paper and pencil and trying to arrive at a consistent model in order to solve a puzzle in a manner similar to that of solving puzzles from the leisure section of a Sunday newspaper. This is philosophy but without having felt it. But when one attempts the same solution because of the bewilderment that this world, this universe poses then one feels the philosophy.
Precisely. Too much of 20th century philosophy had been of the Sunday crossword variety--it was not felt. But when we feel philosophy, and when we look at the world, then dissonance sets in. Sometimes very serious dissonance. We must escape. Movies, music (please, not drugs--why would a philosopher deliberately seek to wreck his mind?) are some methods. So also is ignorance a method.I have two tests to determine if I want to be involved in something: Does it affect me? Can I affect it? A double negative entails I ignore it. If it affects me but I cannot affect it, I consider it and choose my best option among those available. If it does not affect me but I can affect it, I try my best to do what is right. If it both affects me and I can affect it, that's when I put on my best thinking cap. I am pragmatic about my ignorance.